Pastor Michael Guglielmucci and why we dont get morals from religion.

An interesting report on news.com.au has caught our attention.

Read it here -
http://www.news.com.au/comments/0,23600,24216087-2,00.html

Add to this a paragraph from an earlier report - 'There is an amazing moment on the latest Hillsong DVD, This Is Our God, when Michael Guglielmucci, stricken with cancer, walks on stage with an oxygen tent to boldly sing his song Healer.'

In essence this pastor told his congregation and indeed the world that he had cancer. He has preached to thousands of impressionable people and even recorded a hit song called Healer. The major problem with all this was that he never had cancer in the first place.

It is a fascinating and sometimes disturbing thing to see the reactions in the comments section of this article and articles like it. I decided it would be worth some time to comment on the comments as it where. It is also fascinating to note that TV has refused to pick up this story.

I am not intending for this to be a chance to mock some Christians, rather I would like to use this opportunity for people to view the many ways that religion protects itself. Remember that they have had a long time to finesse these responses and the excuses are almost a tradition in themselves.

Let the diversions begin…………... my comments in blue.

I think it's sad that other people who don't belong to a religion as such who make detrimental mistakes don't have to be ostracized the way Mike has. I don't belittle the effects of what he's done but it's unrealistic to hold him to a different standard than any other human being who's made huge mistakes because of his faith in Christ. As a "crazy Christian" myself, I believe in an enemy as much as God. So as much as Mike is not exempt from the enemy, he's neither exempt from God's grace. It's a shame others don't consider exercising that grace too.
Posted by: Kate Lauren of Australia

And yet the very same argument is used against non-believers - where does your morals come from? Implying that without faith you would have no moral compass. What double standards this is. The apt term here is 'if you cant handle the heat get out of the kitchen'. Don’t aspire to be societys moral compass if the people in the faith behave no more morality than those not of the faith. And of course the other chesnut is the fall back - satan. If a believer is immoral it must surely be the devils work.

If only you knew what this man has had to endure, then you would not sneer but feel commpassion. I have know Mike for many yeras now and this is a shock to me too, just because the messenger fails, doesn't mean the message is false. I think what we need to remember is that Mike is not God, he is a man and i just hope that he gets up from his fall to show us what the power of God can really do.
Posted by: shaun of melbourne

Just because a person is perceived to be suffering, it does not justify immorality. It just means that this person decided that through his suffering he would show the worst in himself rather than the best, which every single Christian was praising him for before this bombshell hit. Its like shooting excuse arrows at a moving target.

What is the message if not to be a moral person, to be a good representative of the faith and to do no harm? And lets not forget the most important disctinction here - we are told ovre and over again that without faith we cannot be moral. This is the distinction here.

Again we see the moving target. Sin is not frowned upon, it simply gives us a great opportunity to show how no matter what we do there is forgiveness after the fact.

God see's your little lie as the exact same thing as Mikes big fraud. Infact all sin is the same so we're all on the same scale here.
Posted by: kelly of brisbane

This must be a great deal of comfort to murderers, dictators committing genocide and men pretending to speak for God. If its all the same and we are forgiven anyway, lets go nuts.

Wow. Sounds like 90% of the comments are from people just waiting to pounce the moment a 'christian' screws up. So if it had been a politician, would the whole government's laws & regulations be a sham? If it was an athlete, are the olympics not real and all in our imagination? You gotta remember, there are things that your weak minds and limited perception that you just cannot grasp. ie, the idea of something OTHER THAN YOU. Praying for you Gug..
Posted by: Carey Lee of Melbourne

No Carey, but then the politician does not make a promise to abide by a set of commandments does he. Given the Church consistently tells us that without God there is no morality, it is well within our rights to criticize a person for not acting out his faith. When a politician acts in a manne which contravenes his roles and responsibilities then he is indeed held fully accountable. If the laws and regulations are not robust enough then they can be adjusted, unlike the Bible.

For a Christian to use the terms 'weak minds' and 'limited perception' is about the funniest thing I have read so far.

And as for those who think all we do is pray, therefore nothing, take a look at the women's and children's hospital and schools around the country that have been renovated for no other reason than because the church wants to love people.
Posted by: Kate Lauren of Australia 3:36am

This is completely false. It shows a complete lack of knowledge. Kate simple assumes that the Church is the only thing keeping hospitals and schools together because Christians are taught not to research, but to merely believe. Belief does not unfortunately make a thing true.

As my co-blogger Mark has pointed out - It's confusing the difference between there being people who do good things AND are Christian, and people who do good things BECAUSE they are Christian.

But take it from this Christian--believing in something bigger than yourself, like God isn't being brainwashed. It's being brave. And at the end of the day, sure I could be wrong. But I'd rather take my chances believing there is a God and die wrong than believe there wasn't only to find out there was.
Posted by: Kate Lauren of Australia 4:43am today

With this argument it stands to reason that Kate should also join every other faith, because one particular faith could be wrong. And im sure she would rather take her chances believing in them all 'just in case'. What a horrible and selfish reason to devote yourself to a belief. Forget the religions positives to the community and all, im just looking out for number one here.

As Infidel of Adelaide has also confirmed- Pascal's Wager is a fundamentally flawed reason for believing in God. Looking at it rationally, the only sensible option is to go with the overwhelming evidence provided by science, not religion, for the answers to the big questions of the universe.. but then, religion has never been about logic, rationality or making sense, has it?

Mark also adds - This argument if a famous one. It's called Pascals Wager. You've identified one hole in this logic - that there a lots of different gods to believe in, and some gods say not to believe in the other ones. There's also two potentially false premises: 1) that there would be bad consequences for not believing if he does exist, 2) and that there are no consequences for believing if he doesn't.

Oooh, big news, Christian lied, therefore all Christians are deceived liars. So if we extend that line of reasoning a little further: Atheist Hitler killed people, therefore all atheists are evil murderers. All people make mistakes. Nobody is perfect. But thank goodness somebody paid the price for my sins.
Posted by: Ben of Canberra

In fact Hitler was NOT an atheist, he was a Catholic. Let me repeat that just in case it is forgotten. In fact Hitler was NOT an atheist, he was a Catholic.

I actually had a tangible spiritual experience at one meeting he spoke at... which I attribute to God... I know some may mock... it doesn't worry me... I'm just pointing out God uses anything (including fakes) to bring people closer to him. Essentially the only thing separating a Christian from a Non Christian is faith... we are just like everyone else. I personally apologize for our self righteous mentality. We really are no better, we are just like you.
Posted by: Jezer

Wow, this is a new one. God uses anything to bring people closer to him, including making a mockery of his apparent teachings. With that sort of argument we could attribute the holocaust, hiroshima or even a dab of vegemite on toast to being God's way of converting people to the true faith? Obviously it would require someone of faith to point them out to us otherwise, well it could be mistaken for just a piece of toast.

I'm saddened for him that he felt that he needed to go this route. i have faith however that god will use this situation for his glory.
Posted by: ben

It has actually been proven that prayer has absolutely no impact on the sick individual that they a praying for. This test was conducted by the faithful by the way. They are just keeping it quiet obviously.

The larger these christian institutions become, the stronger the self-preservation instinct seems to be which generally results in what we see all too often
Posted by: Dan of Hobart

Right on brother! The comments above provide many examples of self preservation. It truly is all religion has left. The last gasp.

Good comments Kate Osutsider of Perth would rather believe that he came from a monkey and his words do depict the culture. A foolish man says in his heart there is no God" and I dont choose to be foolish
Posted by: Sorry i missed this persons name.

Do you think this person has ever considered opening a book about evolution or do you think perhaps she is basing her opinion on someones comments within the church? Perhaps she should also do a little reading or watching of monkeys and their culture. Personally i like to test my beliefs with others who conflict mine. If my beliefs are based on knowledge and evidence then iI should not be afraid to read an alternative view. Which is why I began to read up on evolutionary theory.

I embrace my foolishness with all my heart.

This is hardest for the people who know Mike and have been on the journey with him for the past 4+ years. But of course. Then you get a bunch of atheistic dorks who have nothing better to do with their life, than try and "Prove" that God doesnt exist from a MAN'S flaw.
Beau of Melbourne

The onus is on YOU to prove God exists. Because there is plenty of evidence out there to support he doesn’t or at the very least we have still seen nothing that cannot be explained without a Gods input. Point me to the relevant studies my friend.

Finally a great comment from Jonathan -

Shaun - what he's had to endure? Regardless of what may have happened in his life (I have no idea what he's been through), he brought this on himself. Nobody forced him to pretend to have cancer for 2 years. I've been through a lot in my 26 years on this planet (including 16 years of very serious illness) but I would never do what he has done. I've no idea if he made money out of this lie but at the very least if he didn't, his church and Hillsong made a packet. It's time evangelical Christians stopped making excuses for crooked preachers.The traditional denominations have far more than their fair share of problems, to be sure, but time and time again, evangelical preachers are shown to be charlatans. It's an easy way to make money, when no divinity training is required and people flock to your place of worship and can be convinced to hand over 10% (often more) of their income with few questions asked. Maybe Hillsong et al will donate any money they made out of this man's songs and sob-story to charity. Nah, not likely! They'll probably use it to promote their 'mental health services' which are nothing more than money-making exorcisms. I dare say Mike has already been exorcised.

Another great comment -

There seems to be a lot of defenders here. I actually went to school with this guy and am quite shocked. I have just had a friend die of cancer and for anyone to pretend to have cancer is despicable. I would have the same feeling for a person who would do that no matter what their religion is. For someone who should know better to actually benefit from a despicable lie like this just makes it even worse. People who put themselves up as moral leaders and behave in this manner deserve a more severe punishment than an average person because they are in a position of trust. Much like if a Supreme Court judge got caught stealing, they would receive a harsher penalty than the average Joe.
Posted by: Seraph of Adelaide

And a final word from Mark - Overall opinion: the actions of someone who has a belief doesn't speak to the merit of that belief. It does speak to the culture of the Pentecostal church in Australia though.

If you are someone who wants to learn more about the world you live in and how we got here. We suggest you have a read of books by Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens. If you are of a faith, our challenge is for you to read one of these books and test your beliefs for their robustness.